If you have ever been involved in teaching you will know that there is no getting away from providing feedback to students on their assignments, be they written, oral or practical ones. But giving and receiving feedback is not confined to educational activities, feedback is part of our everyday life. In our jobs, no matter what we do, we are appraised and our performance discussed.
I am in the process of negotiating a couple of shoots in Norway, where I will be heading to in the first week of October, to attend a conference on dance education. One of the photographers I have been exchanging emails with has an interesting caveat on his MM profile. " I dont know how to comment on a model's performance" he says. "I look at the photograph and if there is something wrong with the pose I think it is the photographer's fault for not directing the model well. Therefore models please dont ask me to give you feedback"
How difficult is it to give feedback to a model? and why is it so difficult?
I don't imagine for a moment my answer has universal validity. But let me try and give an answer to this difficult question . A model, like any other artist, expects to grow - or does she? Feedback will help her to do so, regardless of whether it is positive or negative. Though I know that when I look at a photograph the directions given by the photographer do matter, the photographs I find most striking are the ones where the model is alive and present. Of course she will be alive, I hear you saying. Well, I dont mean literally that she is not a corpse - that much we know . I mean that the model has a certain way of delivering, a way of indicating she is the performer. A model embodies a character, even if that character is herself.
I am now starting self -portraits. I am my own model. Technically I have much to cover, so my self portraits wont be seen around for some time. In them I am myself of course. But at the same time I am a character called Alex. There are certain things I am dying to capture about myself but I know that in the moment of doing it I will be performing myself, which is a good thing. So in looking at those photographs I will be considering my photographic skills but also whether I have been able to portray the character called Alex.
The art of giving feedback to models is the art of giving feedback to a performer.
(All photos modelled by Alex B.)
Photographer: David J. Green
Models on sites such as Model Mayhem or Purestorm receive references, which are feedback on their overall behaviour , usually commenting on things like showing up on time. Photographers too receive feedback on these sites and the more experienced models will give references which go beyond the "and a good time was had by all" but will dwell on the photographic skills of the individual.
Photographer: Wolfgang Kettler
This intrigues me. Is the pose the only thing a model engages with? I often get comments on my dA homepage and someone once said that in looking at my gallery for the first time he was looking at the model rather than the photographs. I thought that was very flattering. I am sure he did not just mean 'poses' because to be honest I do not have a repertoire of a thousand plus poses.How difficult is it to give feedback to a model? and why is it so difficult?
Photographer: David Gibson
Photographer : Carl Williams
The art of giving feedback to models is the art of giving feedback to a performer.
(All photos modelled by Alex B.)
I had a new model outright ask me for feedback after a session ended and she was getting ready to go. Being an educator, I was happy to share with her since from the beginning of our communication and work, she had been very proactive, involved, and seeking information to make the session work. I told her to keep asking the questions she did to get ready for our work, and to also try to determine if the photographer is open to suggestions from her. She had many great ideas and opened up after I asked her for an opinion. I would have been happy if she had started sharing earlier. I am sure some photographers though may find that threatening, so models need to determine if this type of interaction is wanted.
ReplyDeleteFeedback can be tough. What I consider a great part of my artistic vision may be seen as cliche, trite, vulgar or boring to the model, critics, etc. Hearing that criticism may help me grow as an artist or make me shut down all criticism depending on how it is delivered. I am sure the same is true for feedback for the model.
Great post. <---- That is a great example of lousy, empty feedback. I should have said, "Great post. It made me think on how I can help a model work better with future photographers and how I should request feedback from the models I work with."
I try and shoot pin-up and artistic nudes. most of my customers are wives of military, overseas.
ReplyDeleteMost have never posed before and are nervous. Several times I have shown them your work when I can not explain posture or just how to smile. We use mirrors a lot, but your images help the most.Maybe more of the husbands will come home in one piece because of you.Thanks, Coffee
Anonymous I am delighted to hear this, I am truly a MODEL and this makes me feel very happy. You have given me great feedback, thank you
ReplyDeleteI can actually relate to your photographer friend. Good poses are not something with a concrete definition. It's a little easier to see when poses go wrong. I could easily say things like "don't stand flat on your feet", or stuff like that. However, if I were to see those things, it would be equally the photographer's fault for not catching it and correcting it.
ReplyDeleteWhenever I play music with others or for others, whether in rehearsal or performance or recording, I open myself to feedback, even if it's self-feedback. Several times after a recording "take," I have immediately known it had to be done over; other times, that was only apparent when someone said something or I heard the playback. That's the sort of feedback I expect as a performing artist.
ReplyDeleteBut I am obviously *performing* music. From what I've read, there is a reluctance among many photographers to accept models as performers; they're often seen as just mannequins that the photographer manipulates to get a desired effect.
This is foolishness! An experienced model must know how she looks even to a camera, just as I, after decades as a musician, have a good idea how I sound to an audience even in widely differing acoustical spaces. To think otherwise is a singularly dehumanizing attitude, an attitude of one who assists in the dehumanizing of women.
Of course, like you, Alex, I much prefer looking at photographs in which the subject is fully present and alive.
(A while ago after playing at a church conference, I got some very valuable feedback: A woman said that she could tell my whole being, body, mind and spirit, was present and focused on the music and "the Holy Spirit" as we say in Christian circles. I was very pleased, since that has been what I strive for in music. Of course, I don't know any other way to play! If I give less than all of myself, not only is my performance ineffective but I get tired and bored very quickly!)
What a can of worms you open!
ReplyDeletePersonally I take communication very seriously (including feedback to models). I primarily use non-model models because I want a wider variety in bodies and ages than I find if I rely upon MM, OMP or any of the others. As a result making sure that a first-time-model who may be a housewife or an accountant or a machinist has some sense of reward for their work is important -- that's partly how I get models to come back 4, 5, 6 or more times.
But having said that there's much more at play here.
Some of the shooters I know do studio work just because they are NOT good with people. They are good artists but horrible social creatures. Should they try harder -- perhaps. Do people buy their work in spite of the fact that they don't communicate well -- you betcha!
Blaming a model's "pose" for a bad shot is really just shifting blame. If I'm working with an overweight, aging woman, who has no idea how to pose it's MY job to make her look good -- to crop, reposition, re-light, whatever I have to do to maximize the final product. Conversely -- no matter how great the model may be I have seen wonderful poses pissed away because the photographer didn't have an eye for his / her subject matter.
Would that this subject was all that easy to assess. People do want assurance that they are doing their job, that they are appreciated, that their input is valued; some of us do that better than others (artists and models) -- and some of us don't want honest assessment we want to be coddled, flattered, and sucked up to. I'm glad to do the former and I object to being expected to do the latter.
I am delighted to have received so many thoughtful comments. What more can I say? Yes of course if the model is not experienced she (by this I mean he as well) will have to rely on the photographer to direct her, just like an actor who is not experienced needs to learn from the film director. The pose can be corrected by the photographer and of course the photographer has to do his/her bit but the more experienced the model the easier it will be to direct her and she will be able to nuance her performance.
ReplyDeleteSo feedback for a model is , more than comments on the poses, comments on her interpretation - expression among the factors to be taken into account. And of course in terms of overall work performance, reliability, punctuality, politeness.
As for feedback as such it is the way it is given that matters. Cynicism, and a dismissive attitude will never help anyone. But pretending that everything is fine, when it is not, does not work either.
I like to follow models on dA a lot more than I like to follow photographers.
ReplyDeleteI've been trying for a few minutes to come up with an explanation for this that uses music as an analogue, so here goes:
A photographer is like a music producer. They record, they tweak, they direct, they shape the end result and the concept.
The model is like the singer. The model is the product, the conduit, the filter through which all of the photographer's ideas eventually sift through.
When you listen to music, you usually think of the music artist rather than the music producer. You want to hear more of the artist, you buy their albums.
With a model, you want to see them in all sorts of ways, producing new works. With a photographer, you want to see a specific style, but with different models.
With music producers it's the same. If you're more interested in the sound of the music than the artist, you might be drawn to the works of a specific producer. For example, I am drawn, generally to almost any album produced by Dave 'Rave' Ogilvie.
And if I like a particular photographer's style, and a particular model's work, I'll follow both, just as I would with a band and its producer.
I feel like I had a way to link this up with feedback in a more overt sort of way, but I can't recall what my linchpin was.
I love your analogy Hatebunny. I think it really brings out the relationship between model and photographer. When you remember your linchpin I 'd love to hear how you link it up with feedback
ReplyDeleteObviously, you can't give a model feedback based on the quality of the image, because that's the photographer's realm (unless the photographer was silly enough to let someone else edit the photo... sigh).
ReplyDeleteI think where feedback for models happens is in how well they convey their message.
While, in some cases it must be the responsibility of the photographer to direct the model, it is also part of the model's responsibility (and one of the key skills possessed by good models) not to need direction.
Still, a pose which conveys dominance and power, but a facial expression which undercuts the message of that pose - that's a case where the model made a mistake.
The model has to maintain the integrity of the character, the theme, the message, the mood.
The shoot could be spontaneous, but if a model lets the self-awareness required during a photoshoot slip, it will lead to bad photos.
And when I say self-awareness I don't mean that the model must be aware at all times that he or she is posing or in a photo at a given moment, but that they must be aware that they COULD be.
With respect to my earlier post, a musician can be a good musician, but if they play their instrument badly, or sing too many wrong notes, the audience will not be receptive, and it will damage their reputation for the future. The same is true of models. If they can't maintain their image and their persona from shoot to shoot (or shot to shot), their inconsistency will be their downfall.
Giving good feedback for models can involve leading them to see which poses are not flattering for them, and which are - and how to take advantage of both; encouraging them to explore the space; to feel more during a shoot, rather than just standing around...
Hatebunny this sounds so right! Maybe we should work together at some point...
ReplyDeleteI just would like to point out that
some models like editing photos and they may do a very good job of it! UL is a case in point. Editing can be delegated to someone else. In the commercial world photographers give their pics to professional retouchers. Photography can be a solitary pursuit - you the photographer do everything - but maybe that is not the only way? Old masters used to have ateliers and often got their students to paint on their behalf. Established photographers have assistants. But now we are straying into something other...Next post perhaps?
Interesting analogy from music. Speaking as one who has played in many kinds of musical groups including orchestras, I see the relationship more as player to conductor. In non-classical music the producer's role can be very proactive, but in classical music it's the conductor who really shapes the sound and style; classical recording producers (if they're good) aim for as transparent a production as possible. During rehearsal and performance, the conductor gives verbal and visual cues that make me shape, or reshape, my playing, just as a photographer gives verbal and other types of directions to help the model create with him/her.
ReplyDelete